PR Start - Latest Comments

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Anne Craft — Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:11:46 -0000

As the CEO of a company that offers internships, both paid and unpaid, I must raise one point. While interns do contribute a great deal, they often require a lot more direction and direct instruction than someone who already has their degree, or someone with some real world experience. Many employers take their role of teaching their interns quite seriously, and spend many hours mentoring them to provide an experience that is worthy of their time and effort. This is a soft cost to the business that is not reflected in the bottom line, and is, in my opinion, a fair trade.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Brennan Sarich — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:33:51 -0000

Hey Nick, I randomly found this entry again while reading through the blogosphere. I agree that experience is valuable, but it isn't as valuable as compensation. I don't think every internship needs to be paid, but once someone is out of school and looking for a job, I think it's unfair to just let people go from unpaid internship to unpaid internship. It creates this idea that entry level employees (Which is now an intern) aren't valued by their organization. It demotivates interns, it increases economic problems, and frankly, it's just being a jerk unless there's a good business reason behind the decision.

If someone bills you out as an intern for more than free it's fair to assume you deserve compensation for adding business value.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Brennan Sarich — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:28:17 -0000

Hey Nick, I randomly

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

LindsayNK9 — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:45:45 -0000

All of my internships have been unpaid and I feel I have gotten a great experience. Especially in the entertainment industry, paid internships are hard to come by. If you aren't willing to do the work for free, someone else will. I can't speak for agencies, but that has been my experience.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Alex Braun — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:20:06 -0000

This topic has come up on our blog a few times recently, and obviously people have pretty strong opinions on it. My personal feeling (not representative of Internships.com as a whole, obviously) is that unpaid work is fairly immoral in addition to being illegal if there isn't valuable training going on or if the company is using its unpaid interns to displace the need for paid workers. But the law is going to be politically difficult to enforce because it's been done for so long, and businesses have relied so heavily on unpaid interns to survive the recession.

Here are a couple blogs we posted recently on the issue, one of which contains Mark Cuban's counterpoint:

When do internships become 'bought?' (http://bit.ly/gCehc2)
Breakfast Debate: Should more companies hire paid interns? (http://bit.ly/fh9647)

Here

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Stephanie Greenall — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:09:56 -0000

Great Post! I recently graduated from a Corporate Communications graduate program, and have just come off of a paid internship (lucky)! The only way I was able to take this internship was by moving back into my parents place, and swallowing some of my pride (it didnt pay THAT much).

I have noticed that a lot of my peers have taken on internships at agencies and organizations are are scrounging for peanuts. The work that a lot of us were doing was entry-level but as an intern, we are minimally compensated. As I search for an entry level job, I continue to get un-paid internships because organizations find it easier to hire a cheap intern rather than a full time employee.

I am ready to land a full time job, and use my skills for a greater purpose rather than interning. I understand that an internship is a learning experience, but jumping from internship to internship can cost quite a bit. Paying an intern is important, they've got to get bread on the table somehow!

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

nicklucido — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:49:08 -0000

Thanks for dropping by, Brennan. Structured programs are the way to go. Unpaid or paid, interns should leave smarter and more prepared after an internship. I don't necessary agree with your point about the intern's thought process. It must be discouraging to work hard and not receive financial compensation, but it's important to have a good attitude--paid or unpaid--in order to get a good recommendation after the internship.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

nicklucido — Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:46:56 -0000

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Adrienne. I can't say I agree that payment lies in experience if that experience doesn't comply with the federal regulations I mentioned above. I hope that students are finding value in every internship but I think there are companies out there taking advantage of the system.

To your point about paying interns for billable client work--I don't think edits stop after you're done being an intern. Senior agency folks and clients will almost always have edits and that's exactly why interns are paid less. Again, we're devaluing public relations if we think our work shouldn't be paid.

Sure, there are great internships out of big cities, but put it this way: can you work full time unpaid for four months? Think of living expenses, car/public transportation, food, etc. That's a huge investment to be made.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Brennan Sarich — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:10:49 -0000

Totally agree. The only difference is when an agency is actually teaching the intern properly and they are there for educational reasons. Ie. it's actually a learning experience, or they're NFPs, which is essentially volunteering. (Edelman is one of the betteragencies in teaching their interns, from what I hear.)

However, in most cases, the agency isn't teaching the intern, they're just entry level employees. If you wonder why sometimes some intern work needs revising, it's because they're thinking, as they work for a full day, "I'm doing work equivalent to someone the same age/experience beside me, but I'm doing it unpaid, what am I doing here?" And they keep thinking that as they go to their second job, which usually involves minimum wage labour.

Don't tell me that's justifiable. =/

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

Adrienne Legath — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:51:22 -0000

I think that the payment often lies in the experience the intern gets from his/her internship. I also agree with PR Agency below where he notes that the training involved with an intern is a fair trade-off for the work the intern does without pay. In addition, paying interns for billable client work can be a bit of a challenge; since they're new to the working world and to the tasks they're assigned, there are often several rounds of revisions and edits that need to be done by a senior level person (who is also billing time to the client) before they are considered "final." In other words, both people can't be billing hours and hours to the client for a small task.

I've also never heard of interns going thousands of dollars into debt to do an internship. But, if this is truly what's happening, perhaps interns should look for positions close to home where they can live for a small amount?

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

nicklucido — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:40:21 -0000

Whether or not you agree, if the intern is unpaid and is doing billable work, it's illegal. That's why I think it's ripping them off.

I think the agency internship scenario you describe is ideal. Unfortunately, I don't think many of those programs you exist. In my own opinion, I think the 'experience' touted by agencies to attract unpaid interns is an abuse of the system. Everybody needs experience, but interns shouldn't have to put themselves thousands of dollars in debt in the process.

In the long run, I think these discussions will help to improve internship programs and provide better experiences for students.

Re: Are Unpaid Internships Devaluing The Business?

PR Agency — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:21:17 -0000

Interns are getting a valuable work lesson on the real world in the field they have chosen to pursue. Why is it that just because the intern may be unpaid that the company is " ripping them off "? Could it possible be that this company that has decided to take the intern on is putting many man hours into training this individual that may very well leave in a few months, with all of that experience. Seems like a fair trade to me. Not to mention that a solid public relations agency would never hire just anyone. They want experience and how does one go about getting that without getting their foot in the door somewhere first? Being hired after an internship is also very likely saving you the pain of the interview process.

Re: How Social Are You (Online)?

rahulvohra — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 17:43:48 -0000

Hey Nick, it's Rahul from Rapportive here. Thanks so much for the write-up!

I think it's going to become increasingly important for all of us to personally brand, including those of us who aren't looking to get into PR. The real difficulty here is how to scale engaging with an online community to very very large numbers of people — it's something that I'm still figuring out how to do.

A random Rapportive tip: try hovering over an email address in any email or somebody's name in the subject line of any email :)

Rahul, CEO of Rapportive

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:02:44 -0000

That's so awesome, Lauren! I'll look into that and see if we can get MSU in on this. I know there are a lot of enthusiastic profs and students who would be excited at the opportunity.

I hope to see the program continue to be successful and hopefully expand for more students to experience this.

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:01:20 -0000

Hi Sean, I just took a look at the paper. I'm looking forward to reading this in depth (and hopefully sharing information about it here!).

I'm glad to see measurement making its way into the curriculum. Here at MSU, my profs definitely aren't teaching out-of-date techniques, I just find it ironic that marketing papers still think public relations is only useful for word of mouth and media clips. I hope to see more institutions take the jump into finding new and innovative ways to teach the topic.

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

Lauren — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:05:00 -0000

Nick,

Great post. As an educator, I craved the opportunity to give my students the ability to put theory into practice. Now that I am employed by Radian6, I was given the thumbs up to put the tool in the hands of students. The program was executed last Spring and continues into the 2010-11 school year because we have had terrific feedback. (Thank you to Shonali, for the shout out!) Hopefully, the combination of theory, tool exposure, and professional thought leadership give students the support they need as they begin their careers.

Lauren Vargas
Sr. Community Manager at Radian6
@VargasL

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

Sean Williams — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:04:15 -0000

Hi Nick -- the problem goes much deeper than you think. Many PR people can't even write good objectives for their work. How is the c-suite supposed to react to that? I just wrote a post ranting about it -- http://bit.ly/94lxA, and an audio clip too - http://bit.ly/bvpf38 (which I only do when filled with High Dudgeon.)

Read “Guidelines for Setting Measurable PR Objectives” from the Institute for PR and authors Forrest W. Anderson, Linda Hadley, David Rockland and Mark Weiner. http://bit.ly/9ov8TW.

Meanwhile, in my class at Kent State University, there now is a segment on measurement (with Katie Paine's book as the text.) Plus, in Kent's new Online Master's in PR program that starts in January, I'm teaching a class on measurement and ROI. And, my colleague Bill Sledzik bakes measurement demands into his curricula as well. So, at least at one university, we're working on this hard!

Best regards,
Sean
@commammo

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:28:44 -0000

No offense taken, I'm actually quote flattered!

I'm so glad you offered your students the chance to work with R6. R6 and other tools should realize that those at the bottom of the food chain are often the ones making decisions about which tools to use (since they will be the ones using them the most). I hope to see more students having this opportunity, and I definitely think this is something PRSSA can look into.

Thanks for dropping by!

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:25:02 -0000

Hey, I only learn from the best :)

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:24:46 -0000

Hi Katie, I appreciate the thoughts. I absolutely agree with the business school approach. I was recently in New York for PRSA's Leadership Rally and in the discussion of the Business Case for Public Relations, this was brought up. I hope to see more work from PRSA's MBA initiative (http://bit.ly/audedm) and others like it.

From my own agency experience, if potential hires have experience using emerging monitoring tools, it's a big plus. I'll definitely look into the DIY dashboard. Thanks for the heads up!

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

nicklucido — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:20:10 -0000

Thanks for dropping by, Rebecca! Long time no see (in person, that is).

I absolutely understand there will be a lag for the academic community to embrace new measurement tactics. Unfortunately, it's pretty detrimental to a fundamental understanding of public relations. ANd thanks for the props--keep it up with being a measurement resource for all of us!

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

Rebecca Denison — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:32:24 -0000

Guess which UNC grad works with Nick on measuring PR at his current gig?? :)

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

Rebecca Denison — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:32:01 -0000

Nick, I am so glad you called this textbook out! I was one of the lucky few to be at UNC when we had access to Katie's dashboard, and I tell you, it was an eye-opening experience.

It is just plain embarrassing what some of those textbooks say about PR and how little they dive into measurement when it is quickly becoming one of the most important discussions in our industry.

Fabulous post, sir! You have no idea how thankful I am that you're on my team. We're lucky to have you! :)

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

KDPaine — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:15:11 -0000

OMG is right. This is typical text book BS from some time in the middle of the prior century. CMO's and CEOs won't understand PR until they teach it in the business schools. Likewise PR won't get any respect until they take business courses.
Buildling on Shonali's comments, we gave UNC free access to our DIY Dashboard tool for two years to ensure that those students understand measurement and the business implications of PR. Guess which students I'd want to hire! :)
Interestingly enough, your institution has been one of my clients for the past two years until they cut the budget :(. But go talk to Kent Casella and Carmin Crist and they, at least, understand what PR is really all about. Get them to show you our latest reports too :)

Re: The Biggest Problem With Measurement

Shonali Burke — Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:39:59 -0000

Nick, I hope if I say "out of the mouths of babes..." that won't offend you, since it's meant to be a compliment.

Who on earth wrote this? Good grief!

What's even sadder is that way too many pros believe the above to be true. That's not just the problem with measurement, it's the problem with PR in general (and I have a post, or perhaps several, coming on that topic and using that headline). I am so tired of the "PR is publicity is PR" meme.

The point you raise about proprietary tools is extremely valid. This year, Radian6 gave my students at Johns Hopkins a month's free trial during my course, so that they could get a sense of what a "real world" tool looks like. I think it was invaluable for them. It was also a smart move for R6, since they may have primed potential clients down the road; not just my students, who all work "somewhere," but because they had to use R6 (among other tools) for the nonprofit "clients" they worked with during the course. I think Cision has started offering something like that as well, and hopefully other companies will too.

Thank you for sharing my list & the #measurePR chat info. And thank you for being a voice of sanity in what is a pretty crazy field.